[Vtigercrm-developers] Fwd: Re: Cooperation - part 1
Vic Cekvenich
vic.cvc at gmx.com
Sun Aug 17 22:04:44 GMT 2014
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] Cooperation - part 1
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 15:49:41 +0530
From: Sreenivas Kanumuru <svk at vtiger.com>
Reply-To: vtigercrm-developers at lists.vtigercrm.com
To: vtigercrm-developers at lists.vtigercrm.com
<vtigercrm-developers at lists.vtigercrm.com>
Matus,
/You start with develop without any feedback from "partners" and
after publishing you see it's wrong step so you change it. :/
We didn't publish it yet. We only released a preview to gather feedback.
We are implementing the suggestions prior to publishing it in 6.1. We
wanted to have the basic things in place before seeking feedback
(reviews, publisher portal, encryption). I guess this is the process
you followed when you released the installer in 2010.
/Why you don't start with asking to us (vtiger extensions companies)
like:
- what we need for License control, how we make it
- our experiencies with extensions install and how can it be better/
Those are good questions. I'll put them across in a separate email.
Thank you.
Regards,
Sreenivas
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 1:48 PM, IT-Solutions4You <info at its4you.sk
<mailto:info at its4you.sk>> wrote:
Global question.
Why you don't start with asking to us (vtiger extensions companies)
like:
- what we need for License control, how we make it
- our experiencies with extensions install and how can it be better
You start with develop without any feedback from "partners" and
after publishing you see it's wrong step so you change it. This is
really inefficient efforts. Maybe you remember, we have done some
kind of Extensions installer in ... (June 2010 ) I have found it:
https://discussions.vtiger.__com/index.php?p=/discussion/__33177/extensions-installer/p1
<https://discussions.vtiger.com/index.php?p=/discussion/33177/extensions-installer/p1>.
Some comment's from community:
Balduin June 2010
Posts: 6,653
I am impressed! This is a very useful extension and makes it much
easier to keep an overview of everything what exist.
joebordes July 2010
Posts: 6,185
Looks really nice to me also and I think it is GREAT idea.
But instead that we develop it together, It was not publisched from
your site, because of ... The functionallity of this Extension was
very similar like you have done now. I think we (partners) have many
good ideas how to make vtiger better, fexible,..... but you have
little listen to us and more comunicate with us.
Regards,
Matus
Dňa 30. 7. 2014 16:06 Sreenivas Kanumuru wrote / napísal(a):
/I think without 'install from file' button, vtiger CRM
Open Source
is dead project, so it was not only our voice. It was a
reaction to
stupid idea remove this button. You ever think about it
what you are
doing and how it will affect on community? /
While we removed Install from File from UI, by providing the command
line Console, developers wouldn't have a problem installing
extensions
from file. We wanted to emulate the iphone like environment
where apps
installed through AppStore work fine even when you upgrade the
iOS. Our
view is to remove any apprehension in users mind when installing
apps
through Extensions Store. With such confidence, we feel they
will try
more extensions.
In any case, we took the welcome advise from you to provide the
'install
from file' option with a warning note so that users are aware of
the risk.
/I suppose only 10% of vtiger CRM users can use Extensions
Store
because of implementation extension loader
http://community.vtiger.com/____help/vtigercrm/php/extension-____loader.html
<http://community.vtiger.com/__help/vtigercrm/php/extension-__loader.html>
<http://community.vtiger.com/__help/vtigercrm/php/extension-__loader.html
<http://community.vtiger.com/help/vtigercrm/php/extension-loader.html>>
and
withou Extensions Store is not possible do basic think like
install
new language file and another module manager compatible
extensions./
This remains a valid concern. We are looking at options to allow
users
to install free / unencrypted extensions without the loader.
Currently,
installing any extension requires the loader to be installed.
The reason we have the loader in the first place, is because we
wanted
to provide developers a secure environment for distributing
extensions.
/How do you plan expand your product if there is no
language option
etc ?/
I know your comment is not just about languages, but wanted to just
state that 12+ languages are bundled in the product. They is no
need to
install them.
Regards,
Sreenivas
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:27 PM, IT-Solutions4You
<info at its4you.sk <mailto:info at its4you.sk>
<mailto:info at its4you.sk <mailto:info at its4you.sk>>>
wrote:
I think without 'install from file' button, vtiger CRM Open
Source
is dead project, so it was not only our voice. It was a
reaction to
stupid idea remove this button. You ever think about it
what you are
doing and how it will affect on community? I suppose only
10% of
vtiger CRM users can use Extensions Store because of
implementation
extension loader
http://community.vtiger.com/____help/vtigercrm/php/extension-____loader.html
<http://community.vtiger.com/__help/vtigercrm/php/extension-__loader.html>
<http://community.vtiger.com/__help/vtigercrm/php/extension-__loader.html
<http://community.vtiger.com/help/vtigercrm/php/extension-loader.html>>
and withou Extensions Store is not possible do basic think like
install new language file and another module manager compatible
extensions. How do you plan expand your product if there is no
language option etc ?
Dňa 29. 7. 2014 10:48 Sreenivas Kanumuru wrote / napísal(a):
Thanks for sharing these, Blazej. You have recently
lent your
voice for
adding the 'install from file' button in the Extension
Store,
and we did
it. We respect your opinion. (Infact, i emailed you a
month ago
to get
your feedback but didn't receive your reply).
While more remains to be done, I am pleased with the
progress we
have
made since January on several aspects
1. Extensions Store coming soon to make it easy for
publishers to
distribute modules to more users
2. Dedicated team in Vtiger, for resolving trac issues.
3. Focus on improving APIs to allow developers to write
powerful extensions
4. Focus on better Documentation - New site -
community.vtiger.com/help <http://community.vtiger.com/help>
<http://community.vtiger.com/__help
<http://community.vtiger.com/help>>
<http://community.vtiger.com/____help
<http://community.vtiger.com/__help>
<http://community.vtiger.com/__help
<http://community.vtiger.com/help>>>
5. Marketplace site will soon feature developers
section to allow
developers to promote their services (not just
extensions).
I responded to your points below.
*Why Vtiger doesn't publish some modules?*
/Although our modules have been installed on
hundreds of
servers,
the producer did not want to accept them and
crated more
problems.
This problem concerned a very simple module and we had
dozens of
other modules for publication that were far more
complicated than that./
We want to see more modules on the marketplace, not
less. And we
want to
make it easy for users to install those modules without
putting
their
installations at risk. Modules should be upgrade safe.
With the new marketplace, our goal is to respond to new
submissions,
within 2 business days. We didn't do a good job on
dealing with
submissions last year, but that will change now.
*Issues from Trac are not being resolved *(they are)
After six months of reporting and ignoring them by the
designer, we
finally stopped adding them to trac.vtiger.com
<http://trac.vtiger.com>
<http://trac.vtiger.com>
<http://trac.vtiger.com/>.
/A lot of errors that we reported stayed either
unresolved
(although
they were marked as solved) or was completely
ignored. For
us trac,
turned out to be impractical. /
In the past 6 months, we have closed 100+ trac issues.
94 of the 170
issues on 6.0 are closed. More fixes are yet to be
committed to SVN.
*Developers have to pay to get extensions listed* (Wrong)
/Partnership would probably exist if we paid the
producer.
However,
our values are somewhere else and they have never been
appreciated./
This is absolutely wrong. Our paid partner program only
buys you a
listing on the partner page. It doesn't get your extension
listed on the
marketplace, or get your code into the product.
Extensions and Code
submissions are reviewed on their own merit, nothing else.
*Performance *(2 seconds or less)
*
*
Our average response time for On Demand service is 2
seconds. We
measure
it daily because we take it seriously. Vtiger CRM open
source
has the
same code base. We are on a mission to improve the
performance
to get it
under 1 second. I know in some cases, such as Reports,
Calendar,
response times are unacceptable when you have over very
high
number of
records. We have an On Demand customer for who reports
are taking 2
minutes. We are working on addressing this in the product.
Regards,
Sreenivas
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 1:12 PM, IT-Solutions4You
<info at its4you.sk <mailto:info at its4you.sk>
<mailto:info at its4you.sk <mailto:info at its4you.sk>>
<mailto:info at its4you.sk <mailto:info at its4you.sk>
<mailto:info at its4you.sk <mailto:info at its4you.sk>>>> wrote:
Yes, We agree with all your points. We work with
vtiger 8
year (from
vtiger 4.x version) and we have the same experiences.
Absolutely not
boring, just truly.
Dňa 28. 7. 2014 21:43 Pabiszczak, Błażej wrote /
napísal(a):
*Introduction (boring, you can skip it ;)*
*
*
OpenSaaS has dealt with the implementations of
Vtiger
software
for five
years. I, as the owner of the company, have
seven years of
experience
with it. We maintain an active contact with the
community in
Poland and
we are eager to help others, often behind official
channels.
Cooperation with Vtiger has always been
complicated.
Our first
obstacle
was the English language that is used in the
software.
Then, our
second
obstacle was the fact that the producer
perceived us as
“necessary evil”
and/or “competitors”.
OpenSaaS has been implementing Vtiger 6 (from
the first
alpha
versions)
since a year, because it is a huge step in
comprehending business
applications, even at the expense of stability
that our
company
corrected during tests at the end customer.
We placed our hopes on the producer thinking
that if
something
that was
released in 6.0 version was unstable, it will be
corrected in 6.1
version. We reported over 100 errors during
six months
(a lot of
them
beyond trac.vtiger.com
<http://trac.vtiger.com> <http://trac.vtiger.com>
<http://trac.vtiger.com>
<http://trac.vtiger.com>). Additionally, we did
not report hundreds of other errors since they
seemed
so obvious
that it
would not make any sense.
*Cooperation (also boring and you can skip it ;o)*
*
*
It is surprising, how difficult a contact with the
producer can
be, even
though the considerable majority of reported
errors
regarded the
development of their application. I will
divide it into
subsections in
order to make it more transparent:
1. Modules
As one of the largest Vtiger software
producers in the
world, we
reposed
our trust in the producer. Unfortunately, in
spite of many
attempts to
communicate we gave up, and what induced us to
do so was:
an attempt to publish modules for 5.4 version
took many
months
(to no
effect, in spite of sending many emails and
reminders)
- our
concerns
were completely ignored by Vtiger
difficulties regarding the modification of
system files
(unfortunately,
there was no possibility for 5.4. version to
create modules
differently,
the exception were modules of “hello world” type)
When after two years, we managed to reach a
compromise
and the
producer
promised to find the time and publish modules, it
turned out
that they
started to reject the colour of fonts or, in more
extreme cases, odd
visual elements. It would be acceptable, if the
producer themselves
fulfilled these assumptions at least in 10% in
their
modules.
Although our modules have been installed on
hundreds of
servers, the
producer did not want to accept them and
crated more
problems. This
problem concerned a very simple module and we had
dozens of other
modules for publication that were far more
complicated
than that.
That is why we gave up the publication of
modules for
Vtiger.
2. Reporting errors
We do not understand why the producer ignored
many of
errors that we
reported. After six months of reporting and
ignoring
them by the
designer, we finally stopped adding them to
trac.vtiger.com <http://trac.vtiger.com> <http://trac.vtiger.com>
<http://trac.vtiger.com>
<http://trac.vtiger.com>
A lot of errors that we reported stayed either
unresolved
(although they
were marked as solved) or was completely
ignored. For
us trac,
turned
out to be impractical.
Many times we suggested ready-made solutions for
problems but
they were
always ignored. Even our numerous requests for
adding
one line
of code
to files of the engine were impossible to be
fulfilled
by the
producer.
We cannot cooperate this way.
3. Partnership
Partnership would probably exist if we paid
the producer.
However, our
values are somewhere else and they have never been
appreciated.
*Priorities*
*
*
I am going to omit certain problems, such as
community
that does not
exist, documentation that is missing or the
fact that
users of the
software are often ignored. Now, Vtiger is
becoming
more and more
commercialised. I could provide many examples
but it is
not my aim.
An end customer, who the producer wants to
acquire, is
the biggest
problem. Currently, small companies and
individuals are
the most
important customers for Vtiger. Their main
objective is to
develop their
cloud that constitutes their part of profits.
Obviously, the
producer
decides on its own in which direction they
would like to
develop, but it
created a lot of problems:
Quantity, not quality
The producer aspires to create an average
product that is
delivered to
an end customer without prior testing. There
have been
a lot of
minor
functionalities created in order to make it
possible to
compare the
product with other software, such as SugarCRM
or Sales
Force. In
fact,
there are created defective semi-finished
products that
are not
acceptable for the regular customer.
What has been done with the modules:
Trouble Ticket
Calendar
Google Sync
Mail Manager
Reports
implies that the producer does not respect end
users. I
am not
going to
describe problems with these modules (and many
others)
because
who used
them knows what I am writing about.
I regard deleting part of the functionalities
from 6.0
version
and not
restoring them by eight months as an act of
ignorance.
Although we sent ready-made solutions for
migration
errors from 5.4
version to 6.0 version to vtiger-list, they
were not
corrected for
months and I will leave it with no comments.
Shop
What the producer does with the shop is the
indicative
of software
commercialisation and the preference of own
solutions
over the
solutions
of partners as well as it is also the sign of
ignoring
the needs of
communities.
Performance
Nobody, who have not tried to do the following
things, will
understand
this problem:
import millions of data,
implement the software in companies larger
than 100 users.
It is incredible what Vtiger did in the
calendar in
Vtiger 6 (it
is only
one of many examples). During the past few
months, we have
introduced
the software in a few very large companies, we
have
spent a lot
of time
on improving the logistics in generating the
calendar.
The basic
functionality of the software is useless
without a few
days spent on
amendments in the code.
Although everyone makes mistakes, that
situation made
us think.
If we
take existing errors in Vtiger into
consideration, we
will come
into the
conclusion that the producer has not
introduced their
product in any
large company. Any big implementations would
require
cooperation
with
partners such as OpenSaaS and many days of work to
optimise the
current
code and introduce patches.
If I were wrong, that would mean that the
producer does not
introduce
any patches to Vtiger community version.
*Summary*
*
*
We think that current direction of the
development of the
software is
detrimental to the community. The further
cooperation
in this
direction
is not possible for us. Only radical changes can
rebuild our trust.
Z poważaniem / Regards
Błażej Pabiszczak
M: +48.884999123 <tel:%2B48.884999123>
<tel:%2B48.884999123>
<tel:%2B48.884999123>
E: b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl>
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.__pl
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl>>
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.>____pl
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.__pl
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl>>>
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas>.
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas>.__>____pl
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.>____pl
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.__pl
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl>>>>
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http://www.vtiger.com/
_____________________________________________________
http://www.vtiger.com/
___________________________________________________
http://www.vtiger.com/
___________________________________________________
http://www.vtiger.com/
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http://www.vtiger.com/
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