[Vtigercrm-developers] Fwd: Fwd: Fwd: Fwd: Re: Cooperation - part 1
Vic Cekvenich
vic.cvc at gmx.com
Mon Aug 18 00:10:19 GMT 2014
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Vtigercrm-developers] Fwd: Fwd: Fwd: Re: Cooperation - part 1
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 16:50:08 -0700
From: Vic Cekvenich <vic.cvc at gmx.com>
Reply-To: vtigercrm-developers at lists.vtigercrm.com
To: vtigercrm-developers at lists.vtigercrm.com
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Vtigercrm-developers] Fwd: Fwd: Re: Cooperation - part 1
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 16:30:13 -0700
From: Vic Cekvenich <vic.cvc at gmx.com>
Reply-To: vtigercrm-developers at lists.vtigercrm.com
To: vtigercrm-developers at lists.vtigercrm.com
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Vtigercrm-developers] Fwd: Re: Cooperation - part 1
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 15:04:08 -0700
From: Vic Cekvenich <vic.cvc at gmx.com>
Reply-To: vtigercrm-developers at lists.vtigercrm.com
To: vtigercrm-developers at lists.vtigercrm.com
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] Cooperation - part 1
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 14:18:21 +0530
From: Sreenivas Kanumuru <svk at vtiger.com>
Reply-To: vtigercrm-developers at lists.vtigercrm.com
To: vtigercrm-developers at lists.vtigercrm.com
<vtigercrm-developers at lists.vtigercrm.com>
Thanks for sharing these, Blazej. You have recently lent your voice for
adding the 'install from file' button in the Extension Store, and we did
it. We respect your opinion. (Infact, i emailed you a month ago to get
your feedback but didn't receive your reply).
While more remains to be done, I am pleased with the progress we have
made since January on several aspects
1. Extensions Store coming soon to make it easy for publishers to
distribute modules to more users
2. Dedicated team in Vtiger, for resolving trac issues.
3. Focus on improving APIs to allow developers to write powerful extensions
4. Focus on better Documentation - New site -
community.vtiger.com/help <http://community.vtiger.com/help>
5. Marketplace site will soon feature developers section to allow
developers to promote their services (not just extensions).
I responded to your points below.
*Why Vtiger doesn't publish some modules?*
/Although our modules have been installed on hundreds of servers,
the producer did not want to accept them and crated more problems.
This problem concerned a very simple module and we had dozens of
other modules for publication that were far more complicated than that./
We want to see more modules on the marketplace, not less. And we want to
make it easy for users to install those modules without putting their
installations at risk. Modules should be upgrade safe.
With the new marketplace, our goal is to respond to new submissions,
within 2 business days. We didn't do a good job on dealing with
submissions last year, but that will change now.
*Issues from Trac are not being resolved *(they are)
After six months of reporting and ignoring them by the designer, we
finally stopped adding them to trac.vtiger.com
<http://trac.vtiger.com/>.
/A lot of errors that we reported stayed either unresolved (although
they were marked as solved) or was completely ignored. For us trac,
turned out to be impractical. /
In the past 6 months, we have closed 100+ trac issues. 94 of the 170
issues on 6.0 are closed. More fixes are yet to be committed to SVN.
*Developers have to pay to get extensions listed* (Wrong)
/Partnership would probably exist if we paid the producer. However,
our values are somewhere else and they have never been appreciated./
This is absolutely wrong. Our paid partner program only buys you a
listing on the partner page. It doesn't get your extension listed on the
marketplace, or get your code into the product. Extensions and Code
submissions are reviewed on their own merit, nothing else.
*Performance *(2 seconds or less)
*
*
Our average response time for On Demand service is 2 seconds. We measure
it daily because we take it seriously. Vtiger CRM open source has the
same code base. We are on a mission to improve the performance to get it
under 1 second. I know in some cases, such as Reports, Calendar,
response times are unacceptable when you have over very high number of
records. We have an On Demand customer for who reports are taking 2
minutes. We are working on addressing this in the product.
Regards,
Sreenivas
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 1:12 PM, IT-Solutions4You <info at its4you.sk
<mailto:info at its4you.sk>> wrote:
Yes, We agree with all your points. We work with vtiger 8 year (from
vtiger 4.x version) and we have the same experiences. Absolutely not
boring, just truly.
Dňa 28. 7. 2014 21:43 Pabiszczak, Błażej wrote / napísal(a):
*Introduction (boring, you can skip it ;)*
*
*
OpenSaaS has dealt with the implementations of Vtiger software
for five
years. I, as the owner of the company, have seven years of
experience
with it. We maintain an active contact with the community in
Poland and
we are eager to help others, often behind official channels.
Cooperation with Vtiger has always been complicated. Our first
obstacle
was the English language that is used in the software. Then, our
second
obstacle was the fact that the producer perceived us as
“necessary evil”
and/or “competitors”.
OpenSaaS has been implementing Vtiger 6 (from the first alpha
versions)
since a year, because it is a huge step in comprehending business
applications, even at the expense of stability that our company
corrected during tests at the end customer.
We placed our hopes on the producer thinking that if something
that was
released in 6.0 version was unstable, it will be corrected in 6.1
version. We reported over 100 errors during six months (a lot of
them
beyond trac.vtiger.com <http://trac.vtiger.com>
<http://trac.vtiger.com>). Additionally, we did
not report hundreds of other errors since they seemed so obvious
that it
would not make any sense.
*Cooperation (also boring and you can skip it ;o)*
*
*
It is surprising, how difficult a contact with the producer can
be, even
though the considerable majority of reported errors regarded the
development of their application. I will divide it into
subsections in
order to make it more transparent:
1. Modules
As one of the largest Vtiger software producers in the world, we
reposed
our trust in the producer. Unfortunately, in spite of many
attempts to
communicate we gave up, and what induced us to do so was:
an attempt to publish modules for 5.4 version took many months
(to no
effect, in spite of sending many emails and reminders) - our
concerns
were completely ignored by Vtiger
difficulties regarding the modification of system files
(unfortunately,
there was no possibility for 5.4. version to create modules
differently,
the exception were modules of “hello world” type)
When after two years, we managed to reach a compromise and the
producer
promised to find the time and publish modules, it turned out
that they
started to reject the colour of fonts or, in more extreme cases, odd
visual elements. It would be acceptable, if the producer themselves
fulfilled these assumptions at least in 10% in their modules.
Although our modules have been installed on hundreds of servers, the
producer did not want to accept them and crated more problems. This
problem concerned a very simple module and we had dozens of other
modules for publication that were far more complicated than that.
That is why we gave up the publication of modules for Vtiger.
2. Reporting errors
We do not understand why the producer ignored many of errors that we
reported. After six months of reporting and ignoring them by the
designer, we finally stopped adding them to trac.vtiger.com
<http://trac.vtiger.com>
<http://trac.vtiger.com>
A lot of errors that we reported stayed either unresolved
(although they
were marked as solved) or was completely ignored. For us trac,
turned
out to be impractical.
Many times we suggested ready-made solutions for problems but
they were
always ignored. Even our numerous requests for adding one line
of code
to files of the engine were impossible to be fulfilled by the
producer.
We cannot cooperate this way.
3. Partnership
Partnership would probably exist if we paid the producer.
However, our
values are somewhere else and they have never been appreciated.
*Priorities*
*
*
I am going to omit certain problems, such as community that does not
exist, documentation that is missing or the fact that users of the
software are often ignored. Now, Vtiger is becoming more and more
commercialised. I could provide many examples but it is not my aim.
An end customer, who the producer wants to acquire, is the biggest
problem. Currently, small companies and individuals are the most
important customers for Vtiger. Their main objective is to
develop their
cloud that constitutes their part of profits. Obviously, the
producer
decides on its own in which direction they would like to
develop, but it
created a lot of problems:
Quantity, not quality
The producer aspires to create an average product that is
delivered to
an end customer without prior testing. There have been a lot of
minor
functionalities created in order to make it possible to compare the
product with other software, such as SugarCRM or Sales Force. In
fact,
there are created defective semi-finished products that are not
acceptable for the regular customer.
What has been done with the modules:
Trouble Ticket
Calendar
Google Sync
Mail Manager
Reports
implies that the producer does not respect end users. I am not
going to
describe problems with these modules (and many others) because
who used
them knows what I am writing about.
I regard deleting part of the functionalities from 6.0 version
and not
restoring them by eight months as an act of ignorance.
Although we sent ready-made solutions for migration errors from 5.4
version to 6.0 version to vtiger-list, they were not corrected for
months and I will leave it with no comments.
Shop
What the producer does with the shop is the indicative of software
commercialisation and the preference of own solutions over the
solutions
of partners as well as it is also the sign of ignoring the needs of
communities.
Performance
Nobody, who have not tried to do the following things, will
understand
this problem:
import millions of data,
implement the software in companies larger than 100 users.
It is incredible what Vtiger did in the calendar in Vtiger 6 (it
is only
one of many examples). During the past few months, we have
introduced
the software in a few very large companies, we have spent a lot
of time
on improving the logistics in generating the calendar. The basic
functionality of the software is useless without a few days spent on
amendments in the code.
Although everyone makes mistakes, that situation made us think.
If we
take existing errors in Vtiger into consideration, we will come
into the
conclusion that the producer has not introduced their product in any
large company. Any big implementations would require cooperation
with
partners such as OpenSaaS and many days of work to optimise the
current
code and introduce patches.
If I were wrong, that would mean that the producer does not
introduce
any patches to Vtiger community version.
*Summary*
*
*
We think that current direction of the development of the
software is
detrimental to the community. The further cooperation in this
direction
is not possible for us. Only radical changes can rebuild our trust.
Z poważaniem / Regards
Błażej Pabiszczak
M: +48.884999123 <tel:%2B48.884999123>
E: b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl <mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl>
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.__pl
<mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl>>
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