[Vtigercrm-developers] how to make vtiger more community oriented?

[Richie]

Point taken and updated to the team. 
Apropos the link, it will be updated asap. 
 
Gopal, please do the needful. 
 
Richie




---- Sergio A. Kessler<sergiokessler at gmail.com> wrote ---- 

  richie, I support you all the way, but to resume my experience and all
the projects I've seen (I work with open source for more than 10
years):

- put a communication chanel for users, and leave them helping each other.
 (this is done with the forum)
- put a communicattion chanel for developers, and support and
encourage *every* attempt from a developer for serious help
 (this should be this mailing list)

what is serious help ?
is an attempt to help from a guy that *evidently* has looked at the source code.

and no matter how stupid or crap a patch or the help look,
but you never should ignore this kind of help,
if the patch or change is wrong you should encourage and *motivate*
the author to continue working on it.

there is nothing more demotivating that post a patch, and simply be ignored.
I guarantee that this developer would have a really hard time to
continue to help.


and, btw, are you the only one from the vtigercrm team on this list ?
I have never heard of others developers except from you and saint...

if that's the case, it will be good if you tell them to susbcribe here
and participate helping every attemp of *serious* help.


and, I can't see any mention of this mailing list in the web pages.
it is there ?


regards,
/sak


On 6/14/06, Richie <richie at vtiger.com> wrote:
>
> I will justify the case however difficult it might be.
>
> Yes, we did not answer the queries at certain points in time. But at that
> time, the focus was on getting the job done ourselves and that too fast and
> get the product out faster!There was also an impatience with teaching the
> other folks about how to do it as in the same amount of time, we would have
> got fixed the particular issue and lots more.
>
> Now, we realise that the product has grown too big to be handled by us alone
> and that too at the given speed that we work, it will not be proper to take
> up
> all the tasks ourselves. Hence the query for more community effort.
>
> You can state it as a phase of growth that we had to go through.
> There was no intention of "not-helping-out-folks". It was pure impatience.
> I will hasten to state that "it was not arrogance".
>
>
> "There should be some developer
> documents, API documentation and above all good support in
> Forum/Mailing List. I know that vtigerwiki has some stuff, but it's
> insufficent for a programmer. I strongly believe that making a good
> knowledge base is the key in Open Source Projects."
>
> Manilal, we are working on that. As you are aware, we are trying to get the
> code in a more simpler format (well, we are trying) and we are trying to get
> the
> APIs out too. If you are a bit more patient, we will have some How Tos too
> out in the open. The forum has stopped being the point for dev discussions.
> The mailing list is intended to be the place for dev discussions. Hence we
> did not answer the questions (okay, this might be a lame excuse but it holds
> at times :-) )
>
> /sak, I know it is like looking into the funnel upside down but that is how
> it is.
> We do want to change but it will take some patience and should I say
> guidance to do the same. Manilal, I do remember asking you to be patient as
> we were working on building the basic guidelines itself.
>
> The entire process of taking out junk code, opening up the APIs with
> relatively
> proper documents, the planned website and wiki changes are all towards that
> end only.
>
> If you would have observed, I have myself admitted that I should have been
> more open and should have shared the street-talk that we have here with the
> community in large. Again, if you would have observed, I have started doing
> the same. It is not for taking credit but just to prove that I am trying to
> make things different from what they were. It will take time.
>
> I have in fact shared all the To-do lists of mine with you and realise that
> I should have done it long ago.
>
> Better late than never.
>
> I take all the blame for these "issues". I assure you we do want to be more
> open. Let us make a beginning. We over here, will keep the past in
> perspective so that the same mistakes are not committed again.
>
> BTW /sak, we cannot afford to ignore you guys, however much I hate JeffK
> ;-)!
>
> Come on guys, is no one supporting me for a change ??? :-)!
>
> Richie
>
>
>
>
>
> ---- Sergio A. Kessler<sergiokessler at gmail.com> wrote ----
>
>
> I have to agree...
>
> I can understand not having the time for replying to every end-user
> question, in fact when I was the captain of an open source project, I
> leave the end users helping each other...
>
> there simply no time for developers to answer every stupid question...
>
> but if you want the *developers* community help, you cannot afford to
> ignore them, and then ask the same people to help...
>
>
>
> On 6/14/06, Manilal K M <libregeek at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 14/06/06, Richie <richie at vtiger.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I would like to get your views on making vtiger more
> > > community oriented. The reason for this is
> > > as follows :-
> > >
> > > a) It will free the core team for other tasks. Right
> > > now, we are facing a shortage of hands in
> > > fixing the issues,
> > > testing the product, documentation, etc.
> > >
> > > We would like these to be off-loaded to an extent so
> > > that we can continue further development.
> > >
> > > Things are working no doubt but in patches.
> > >
> > >
> > > I would like to bring in more accountability,
> > > automation and transparency into the
> > > system.
> > > Again, these will not be at the cost of flexibility
> > > and speed.
> > > The core team when left to itself can move very fast
> > > but we need to move together. I am sure
> > > we have people who have skills
> > > supplementary/complementary to those of the core team.
> > > The need is to make these work together thereby leading to
> > > a fast,nimble and efficient community
> > > thereby leading to a much better product.
> > >
> > >
> > > I am sure we have gurus on board who have 'been
> > > there, done that'. I welcome them to put
> > > forth
> > > their ideas on handling this issue.
> > >
> > >
> > > Richie
> > > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Hi Richie:
> > I have only very limited experience(less than 6 months) in vtiger.
> > Within this period I never felt that vtiger is a Open Source Project
> > neither a Community project. The developers never mind to respond to
> > development related questions. They may respond to some user related
> > questions, but rejected developer questions. This is not good for a
> > Community project. Of course it's the highlight of Proprietory
> > projects, where the end user/developer has little control.
> >
> > I admit the fact that the developers are busy, but the fact
> > remains that if a community project wants to succeed, then there
> > should be somebody to make the guidelines for development and project
> > management. I have posted a number of queries regarding developing new
> > modules and module management in vtiger5. But none of them got a
> > satisfactory reply. They are simply ignored by the developers. I know
> > that vtiger5 is under development. But there are no changelog or
> > changes which a programmer can refer with the released code. I am a
> > member of other community projects like Horde and I was suprised with
> > the support. Initially I got immense support from the horde developers
> > so that I was able to learn the stuff in quick time and was able to
> > contribute some good patches.
> >
> > Inorder to make vtiger community oriented, the first step should be
> > taken from the developers itself. There should be some developer
> > documents, API documentation and above all good support in
> > Forum/Mailing List. I know that vtigerwiki has some stuff, but it's
> > insufficent for a programmer. I strongly believe that making a good
> > knowledge base is the key in Open Source Projects.
> >
> > See the result of my postings in mailing list and forums:
> >
> http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-March/000612.html
> > http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=6631
> > http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=4664
> >
> http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-April/000804.html
> >
> http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-May/000918.html
> >
> > See the Unanswered Postings in Forums:
> >
> http://forums.vtiger.com/search.php?search_id=unanswered
> >
> > There are more than 2000 Postings which are unanswered !!!
> >
> > regards
> > Manilal
> > _______________________________________________
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