<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"><html><head><meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"></head><body >Point taken and updated to the team.
<br>Apropos the link, it will be updated asap.
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<br>Gopal, please do the needful.
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<br>Richie<br><br><br><br><br>---- Sergio A. Kessler<sergiokessler@gmail.com> wrote ---- <br><br><blockquote style='border-left: 2px solid #0000FF; padding: 6px;'><html>
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richie, I support you all the way, but to resume my experience and all<br>the projects I've seen (I work with open source for more than 10<br>years):<br><br>- put a communication chanel for users, and leave them helping each other.<br> (this is done with the forum)<br>- put a communicattion chanel for developers, and support and<br>encourage *every* attempt from a developer for serious help<br> (this should be this mailing list)<br><br>what is serious help ?<br>is an attempt to help from a guy that *evidently* has looked at the source code.<br><br>and no matter how stupid or crap a patch or the help look,<br>but you never should ignore this kind of help,<br>if the patch or change is wrong you should encourage and *motivate*<br>the author to continue working on it.<br><br>there is nothing more demotivating that post a patch, and simply be ignored.<br>I guarantee that this developer would have a really hard time to<br>continue to help.<br><br><br>and, btw, are you the only one from the vtigercrm team on this list ?<br>I have never heard of others developers except from you and saint...<br><br>if that's the case, it will be good if you tell them to susbcribe here<br>and participate helping every attemp of *serious* help.<br><br><br>and, I can't see any mention of this mailing list in the web pages.<br>it is there ?<br><br><br>regards,<br>/sak<br><br><br>On 6/14/06, Richie <richie@vtiger.com> wrote:<br>><br>> I will justify the case however difficult it might be.<br>><br>> Yes, we did not answer the queries at certain points in time. But at that<br>> time, the focus was on getting the job done ourselves and that too fast and<br>> get the product out faster!There was also an impatience with teaching the<br>> other folks about how to do it as in the same amount of time, we would have<br>> got fixed the particular issue and lots more.<br>><br>> Now, we realise that the product has grown too big to be handled by us alone<br>> and that too at the given speed that we work, it will not be proper to take<br>> up<br>> all the tasks ourselves. Hence the query for more community effort.<br>><br>> You can state it as a phase of growth that we had to go through.<br>> There was no intention of "not-helping-out-folks". It was pure impatience.<br>> I will hasten to state that "it was not arrogance".<br>><br>><br>> "There should be some developer<br>> documents, API documentation and above all good support in<br>> Forum/Mailing List. I know that vtigerwiki has some stuff, but it's<br>> insufficent for a programmer. I strongly believe that making a good<br>> knowledge base is the key in Open Source Projects."<br>><br>> Manilal, we are working on that. As you are aware, we are trying to get the<br>> code in a more simpler format (well, we are trying) and we are trying to get<br>> the<br>> APIs out too. If you are a bit more patient, we will have some How Tos too<br>> out in the open. The forum has stopped being the point for dev discussions.<br>> The mailing list is intended to be the place for dev discussions. Hence we<br>> did not answer the questions (okay, this might be a lame excuse but it holds<br>> at times :-) )<br>><br>> /sak, I know it is like looking into the funnel upside down but that is how<br>> it is.<br>> We do want to change but it will take some patience and should I say<br>> guidance to do the same. Manilal, I do remember asking you to be patient as<br>> we were working on building the basic guidelines itself.<br>><br>> The entire process of taking out junk code, opening up the APIs with<br>> relatively<br>> proper documents, the planned website and wiki changes are all towards that<br>> end only.<br>><br>> If you would have observed, I have myself admitted that I should have been<br>> more open and should have shared the street-talk that we have here with the<br>> community in large. Again, if you would have observed, I have started doing<br>> the same. It is not for taking credit but just to prove that I am trying to<br>> make things different from what they were. It will take time.<br>><br>> I have in fact shared all the To-do lists of mine with you and realise that<br>> I should have done it long ago.<br>><br>> Better late than never.<br>><br>> I take all the blame for these "issues". I assure you we do want to be more<br>> open. Let us make a beginning. We over here, will keep the past in<br>> perspective so that the same mistakes are not committed again.<br>><br>> BTW /sak, we cannot afford to ignore you guys, however much I hate JeffK<br>> ;-)!<br>><br>> Come on guys, is no one supporting me for a change ??? :-)!<br>><br>> Richie<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> ---- Sergio A. Kessler<sergiokessler@gmail.com> wrote ----<br>><br>><br>> I have to agree...<br>><br>> I can understand not having the time for replying to every end-user<br>> question, in fact when I was the captain of an open source project, I<br>> leave the end users helping each other...<br>><br>> there simply no time for developers to answer every stupid question...<br>><br>> but if you want the *developers* community help, you cannot afford to<br>> ignore them, and then ask the same people to help...<br>><br>><br>><br>> On 6/14/06, Manilal K M <libregeek@gmail.com> wrote:<br>> > On 14/06/06, Richie <richie@vtiger.com> wrote:<br>> > ><br>> > > I would like to get your views on making vtiger more<br>> > > community oriented. The reason for this is<br>> > > as follows :-<br>> > ><br>> > > a) It will free the core team for other tasks. Right<br>> > > now, we are facing a shortage of hands in<br>> > > fixing the issues,<br>> > > testing the product, documentation, etc.<br>> > ><br>> > > We would like these to be off-loaded to an extent so<br>> > > that we can continue further development.<br>> > ><br>> > > Things are working no doubt but in patches.<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > I would like to bring in more accountability,<br>> > > automation and transparency into the<br>> > > system.<br>> > > Again, these will not be at the cost of flexibility<br>> > > and speed.<br>> > > The core team when left to itself can move very fast<br>> > > but we need to move together. I am sure<br>> > > we have people who have skills<br>> > > supplementary/complementary to those of the core team.<br>> > > The need is to make these work together thereby leading to<br>> > > a fast,nimble and efficient community<br>> > > thereby leading to a much better product.<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > I am sure we have gurus on board who have 'been<br>> > > there, done that'. I welcome them to put<br>> > > forth<br>> > > their ideas on handling this issue.<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > Richie<br>> > > _______________________________________________<br>> ><br>> > Hi Richie:<br>> > I have only very limited experience(less than 6 months) in vtiger.<br>> > Within this period I never felt that vtiger is a Open Source Project<br>> > neither a Community project. The developers never mind to respond to<br>> > development related questions. They may respond to some user related<br>> > questions, but rejected developer questions. This is not good for a<br>> > Community project. Of course it's the highlight of Proprietory<br>> > projects, where the end user/developer has little control.<br>> ><br>> > I admit the fact that the developers are busy, but the fact<br>> > remains that if a community project wants to succeed, then there<br>> > should be somebody to make the guidelines for development and project<br>> > management. I have posted a number of queries regarding developing new<br>> > modules and module management in vtiger5. But none of them got a<br>> > satisfactory reply. They are simply ignored by the developers. I know<br>> > that vtiger5 is under development. But there are no changelog or<br>> > changes which a programmer can refer with the released code. I am a<br>> > member of other community projects like Horde and I was suprised with<br>> > the support. Initially I got immense support from the horde developers<br>> > so that I was able to learn the stuff in quick time and was able to<br>> > contribute some good patches.<br>> ><br>> > Inorder to make vtiger community oriented, the first step should be<br>> > taken from the developers itself. There should be some developer<br>> > documents, API documentation and above all good support in<br>> > Forum/Mailing List. I know that vtigerwiki has some stuff, but it's<br>> > insufficent for a programmer. I strongly believe that making a good<br>> > knowledge base is the key in Open Source Projects.<br>> ><br>> > See the result of my postings in mailing list and forums:<br>> ><br>> <a href="http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-March/000612.html">http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-March/000612.html</a><br>> > <a href="http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=6631">http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=6631</a><br>> > <a href="http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=4664">http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=4664</a><br>> ><br>> <a href="http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-April/000804.html">http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-April/000804.html</a><br>> ><br>> <a href="http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-May/000918.html">http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-May/000918.html</a><br>> ><br>> > See the Unanswered Postings in Forums:<br>> ><br>> <a href="http://forums.vtiger.com/search.php?search_id=unanswered">http://forums.vtiger.com/search.php?search_id=unanswered</a><br>> ><br>> > There are more than 2000 Postings which are unanswered !!!<br>> ><br>> > regards<br>> > Manilal<br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > This vtiger.com email is sponsored by: Zoho Writer. Are you still using<br>> your desktop word processor for typing documents? Try the AJAX enabled,<br>> collaboration-friendly online word processor, Zoho Writer for FREE instead!<br>> > <a href="http://zohowriter.com/?vt">http://zohowriter.com/?vt</a><br>> ><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> This vtiger.com email is sponsored by: Zoho Writer. Are you still using your<br>> desktop word processor for typing documents? Try the AJAX enabled,<br>> collaboration-friendly online word processor, Zoho Writer for FREE instead!<br>> <a href="http://zohowriter.com/?vt">http://zohowriter.com/?vt</a><br>><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> This vtiger.com email is sponsored by: Zoho Writer. Are you still using your<br>> desktop word processor for typing documents? Try the AJAX enabled,<br>> collaboration-friendly online word processor, Zoho Writer for FREE instead!<br>> <a href="http://zohowriter.com/?vt">http://zohowriter.com/?vt</a><br>><br>><br>_______________________________________________<br>This vtiger.com email is sponsored by: Zoho Writer. Are you still using your desktop word processor for typing documents? Try the AJAX enabled, collaboration-friendly online word processor, Zoho Writer for FREE instead!<br><a href="http://zohowriter.com/?vt">http://zohowriter.com/?vt</a> <br>
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