[Vtigercrm-developers] Cooperation - part 1
IT-Solutions4You
info at its4you.sk
Thu Jul 31 08:18:04 GMT 2014
Global question.
Why you don't start with asking to us (vtiger extensions companies) like:
- what we need for License control, how we make it
- our experiencies with extensions install and how can it be better
You start with develop without any feedback from "partners" and after
publishing you see it's wrong step so you change it. This is really
inefficient efforts. Maybe you remember, we have done some kind of
Extensions installer in ... (June 2010 ) I have found it:
https://discussions.vtiger.com/index.php?p=/discussion/33177/extensions-installer/p1.
Some comment's from community:
Balduin June 2010
Posts: 6,653
I am impressed! This is a very useful extension and makes it much easier
to keep an overview of everything what exist.
joebordes July 2010
Posts: 6,185
Looks really nice to me also and I think it is GREAT idea.
But instead that we develop it together, It was not publisched from your
site, because of ... The functionallity of this Extension was very
similar like you have done now. I think we (partners) have many good
ideas how to make vtiger better, fexible,..... but you have little
listen to us and more comunicate with us.
Regards,
Matus
Dňa 30. 7. 2014 16:06 Sreenivas Kanumuru wrote / napísal(a):
>
> /I think without 'install from file' button, vtiger CRM Open Source
> is dead project, so it was not only our voice. It was a reaction to
> stupid idea remove this button. You ever think about it what you are
> doing and how it will affect on community? /
>
>
> While we removed Install from File from UI, by providing the command
> line Console, developers wouldn't have a problem installing extensions
> from file. We wanted to emulate the iphone like environment where apps
> installed through AppStore work fine even when you upgrade the iOS. Our
> view is to remove any apprehension in users mind when installing apps
> through Extensions Store. With such confidence, we feel they will try
> more extensions.
>
> In any case, we took the welcome advise from you to provide the 'install
> from file' option with a warning note so that users are aware of the risk.
>
> /I suppose only 10% of vtiger CRM users can use Extensions Store
> because of implementation extension loader
> http://community.vtiger.com/__help/vtigercrm/php/extension-__loader.html
> <http://community.vtiger.com/help/vtigercrm/php/extension-loader.html> and
> withou Extensions Store is not possible do basic think like install
> new language file and another module manager compatible extensions./
>
>
> This remains a valid concern. We are looking at options to allow users
> to install free / unencrypted extensions without the loader. Currently,
> installing any extension requires the loader to be installed.
>
> The reason we have the loader in the first place, is because we wanted
> to provide developers a secure environment for distributing extensions.
>
> /How do you plan expand your product if there is no language option
> etc ?/
>
>
> I know your comment is not just about languages, but wanted to just
> state that 12+ languages are bundled in the product. They is no need to
> install them.
>
> Regards,
> Sreenivas
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:27 PM, IT-Solutions4You
> <info at its4you.sk <mailto:info at its4you.sk>>
> wrote:
>
> I think without 'install from file' button, vtiger CRM Open Source
> is dead project, so it was not only our voice. It was a reaction to
> stupid idea remove this button. You ever think about it what you are
> doing and how it will affect on community? I suppose only 10% of
> vtiger CRM users can use Extensions Store because of implementation
> extension loader
> http://community.vtiger.com/__help/vtigercrm/php/extension-__loader.html
> <http://community.vtiger.com/help/vtigercrm/php/extension-loader.html>
> and withou Extensions Store is not possible do basic think like
> install new language file and another module manager compatible
> extensions. How do you plan expand your product if there is no
> language option etc ?
>
>
> Dňa 29. 7. 2014 10:48 Sreenivas Kanumuru wrote / napísal(a):
>
>
> Thanks for sharing these, Blazej. You have recently lent your
> voice for
> adding the 'install from file' button in the Extension Store,
> and we did
> it. We respect your opinion. (Infact, i emailed you a month ago
> to get
> your feedback but didn't receive your reply).
>
> While more remains to be done, I am pleased with the progress we
> have
> made since January on several aspects
>
> 1. Extensions Store coming soon to make it easy for publishers to
>
> distribute modules to more users
> 2. Dedicated team in Vtiger, for resolving trac issues.
> 3. Focus on improving APIs to allow developers to write
> powerful extensions
> 4. Focus on better Documentation - New site -
> community.vtiger.com/help <http://community.vtiger.com/help>
> <http://community.vtiger.com/__help
> <http://community.vtiger.com/help>>
> 5. Marketplace site will soon feature developers section to allow
>
> developers to promote their services (not just extensions).
>
> I responded to your points below.
>
> *Why Vtiger doesn't publish some modules?*
>
> /Although our modules have been installed on hundreds of
> servers,
>
> the producer did not want to accept them and crated more
> problems.
> This problem concerned a very simple module and we had
> dozens of
> other modules for publication that were far more
> complicated than that./
>
>
>
> We want to see more modules on the marketplace, not less. And we
> want to
> make it easy for users to install those modules without putting
> their
> installations at risk. Modules should be upgrade safe.
>
> With the new marketplace, our goal is to respond to new submissions,
> within 2 business days. We didn't do a good job on dealing with
> submissions last year, but that will change now.
>
> *Issues from Trac are not being resolved *(they are)
>
>
> After six months of reporting and ignoring them by the
> designer, we
> finally stopped adding them to trac.vtiger.com
> <http://trac.vtiger.com>
> <http://trac.vtiger.com/>.
> /A lot of errors that we reported stayed either unresolved
> (although
>
> they were marked as solved) or was completely ignored. For
> us trac,
> turned out to be impractical. /
>
>
>
> In the past 6 months, we have closed 100+ trac issues. 94 of the 170
> issues on 6.0 are closed. More fixes are yet to be committed to SVN.
>
> *Developers have to pay to get extensions listed* (Wrong)
>
> /Partnership would probably exist if we paid the producer.
> However,
> our values are somewhere else and they have never been
> appreciated./
>
>
>
> This is absolutely wrong. Our paid partner program only buys you a
> listing on the partner page. It doesn't get your extension
> listed on the
> marketplace, or get your code into the product. Extensions and Code
> submissions are reviewed on their own merit, nothing else.
>
> *Performance *(2 seconds or less)
> *
>
> *
> Our average response time for On Demand service is 2 seconds. We
> measure
> it daily because we take it seriously. Vtiger CRM open source
> has the
> same code base. We are on a mission to improve the performance
> to get it
> under 1 second. I know in some cases, such as Reports, Calendar,
> response times are unacceptable when you have over very high
> number of
> records. We have an On Demand customer for who reports are taking 2
> minutes. We are working on addressing this in the product.
>
> Regards,
> Sreenivas
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 1:12 PM, IT-Solutions4You
> <info at its4you.sk
> <mailto:info at its4you.sk>
> <mailto:info at its4you.sk
> <mailto:info at its4you.sk>>> wrote:
>
> Yes, We agree with all your points. We work with vtiger 8
> year (from
> vtiger 4.x version) and we have the same experiences.
> Absolutely not
> boring, just truly.
>
>
> Dňa 28. 7. 2014 21:43 Pabiszczak, Błażej wrote / napísal(a):
>
> *Introduction (boring, you can skip it ;)*
> *
>
> *
> OpenSaaS has dealt with the implementations of Vtiger
> software
> for five
> years. I, as the owner of the company, have seven years of
> experience
> with it. We maintain an active contact with the
> community in
> Poland and
> we are eager to help others, often behind official
> channels.
>
> Cooperation with Vtiger has always been complicated.
> Our first
> obstacle
> was the English language that is used in the software.
> Then, our
> second
> obstacle was the fact that the producer perceived us as
> “necessary evil”
> and/or “competitors”.
>
> OpenSaaS has been implementing Vtiger 6 (from the first
> alpha
> versions)
> since a year, because it is a huge step in
> comprehending business
> applications, even at the expense of stability that our
> company
> corrected during tests at the end customer.
>
> We placed our hopes on the producer thinking that if
> something
> that was
> released in 6.0 version was unstable, it will be
> corrected in 6.1
> version. We reported over 100 errors during six months
> (a lot of
> them
> beyond trac.vtiger.com <http://trac.vtiger.com>
> <http://trac.vtiger.com>
> <http://trac.vtiger.com>). Additionally, we did
>
> not report hundreds of other errors since they seemed
> so obvious
> that it
> would not make any sense.
>
> *Cooperation (also boring and you can skip it ;o)*
> *
>
> *
> It is surprising, how difficult a contact with the
> producer can
> be, even
> though the considerable majority of reported errors
> regarded the
> development of their application. I will divide it into
> subsections in
> order to make it more transparent:
>
> 1. Modules
> As one of the largest Vtiger software producers in the
> world, we
> reposed
> our trust in the producer. Unfortunately, in spite of many
> attempts to
> communicate we gave up, and what induced us to do so was:
> an attempt to publish modules for 5.4 version took many
> months
> (to no
> effect, in spite of sending many emails and reminders)
> - our
> concerns
> were completely ignored by Vtiger
> difficulties regarding the modification of system files
> (unfortunately,
> there was no possibility for 5.4. version to create modules
> differently,
> the exception were modules of “hello world” type)
> When after two years, we managed to reach a compromise
> and the
> producer
> promised to find the time and publish modules, it
> turned out
> that they
> started to reject the colour of fonts or, in more
> extreme cases, odd
> visual elements. It would be acceptable, if the
> producer themselves
> fulfilled these assumptions at least in 10% in their
> modules.
> Although our modules have been installed on hundreds of
> servers, the
> producer did not want to accept them and crated more
> problems. This
> problem concerned a very simple module and we had
> dozens of other
> modules for publication that were far more complicated
> than that.
>
> That is why we gave up the publication of modules for
> Vtiger.
>
> 2. Reporting errors
> We do not understand why the producer ignored many of
> errors that we
> reported. After six months of reporting and ignoring
> them by the
> designer, we finally stopped adding them to
> trac.vtiger.com <http://trac.vtiger.com>
> <http://trac.vtiger.com>
> <http://trac.vtiger.com>
>
>
> A lot of errors that we reported stayed either unresolved
> (although they
> were marked as solved) or was completely ignored. For
> us trac,
> turned
> out to be impractical.
>
> Many times we suggested ready-made solutions for
> problems but
> they were
> always ignored. Even our numerous requests for adding
> one line
> of code
> to files of the engine were impossible to be fulfilled
> by the
> producer.
>
> We cannot cooperate this way.
>
> 3. Partnership
> Partnership would probably exist if we paid the producer.
> However, our
> values are somewhere else and they have never been
> appreciated.
>
> *Priorities*
> *
>
> *
> I am going to omit certain problems, such as community
> that does not
> exist, documentation that is missing or the fact that
> users of the
> software are often ignored. Now, Vtiger is becoming
> more and more
> commercialised. I could provide many examples but it is
> not my aim.
>
> An end customer, who the producer wants to acquire, is
> the biggest
> problem. Currently, small companies and individuals are
> the most
> important customers for Vtiger. Their main objective is to
> develop their
> cloud that constitutes their part of profits.
> Obviously, the
> producer
> decides on its own in which direction they would like to
> develop, but it
> created a lot of problems:
>
> Quantity, not quality
> The producer aspires to create an average product that is
> delivered to
> an end customer without prior testing. There have been
> a lot of
> minor
> functionalities created in order to make it possible to
> compare the
> product with other software, such as SugarCRM or Sales
> Force. In
> fact,
> there are created defective semi-finished products that
> are not
> acceptable for the regular customer.
>
> What has been done with the modules:
> Trouble Ticket
> Calendar
> Google Sync
> Mail Manager
> Reports
> implies that the producer does not respect end users. I
> am not
> going to
> describe problems with these modules (and many others)
> because
> who used
> them knows what I am writing about.
>
> I regard deleting part of the functionalities from 6.0
> version
> and not
> restoring them by eight months as an act of ignorance.
>
> Although we sent ready-made solutions for migration
> errors from 5.4
> version to 6.0 version to vtiger-list, they were not
> corrected for
> months and I will leave it with no comments.
>
>
> Shop
> What the producer does with the shop is the indicative
> of software
> commercialisation and the preference of own solutions
> over the
> solutions
> of partners as well as it is also the sign of ignoring
> the needs of
> communities.
>
> Performance
> Nobody, who have not tried to do the following things, will
> understand
> this problem:
> import millions of data,
> implement the software in companies larger than 100 users.
> It is incredible what Vtiger did in the calendar in
> Vtiger 6 (it
> is only
> one of many examples). During the past few months, we have
> introduced
> the software in a few very large companies, we have
> spent a lot
> of time
> on improving the logistics in generating the calendar.
> The basic
> functionality of the software is useless without a few
> days spent on
> amendments in the code.
>
> Although everyone makes mistakes, that situation made
> us think.
> If we
> take existing errors in Vtiger into consideration, we
> will come
> into the
> conclusion that the producer has not introduced their
> product in any
> large company. Any big implementations would require
> cooperation
> with
> partners such as OpenSaaS and many days of work to
> optimise the
> current
> code and introduce patches.
>
> If I were wrong, that would mean that the producer does not
> introduce
> any patches to Vtiger community version.
>
> *Summary*
> *
>
> *
> We think that current direction of the development of the
> software is
> detrimental to the community. The further cooperation
> in this
> direction
> is not possible for us. Only radical changes can
> rebuild our trust.
>
>
> Z poważaniem / Regards
> Błażej Pabiszczak
> M: +48.884999123 <tel:%2B48.884999123>
> <tel:%2B48.884999123>
> E: b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl
> <mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl>
> <mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.__pl
> <mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl>>
> <mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.
> <mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.>____pl
> <mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.__pl
> <mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl>>>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________
> http://www.vtiger.com/
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________
>
> http://www.vtiger.com/
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________
> http://www.vtiger.com/
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________
> http://www.vtiger.com/
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.vtiger.com/
>
More information about the vtigercrm-developers
mailing list