[Vtigercrm-developers] Cooperation - part 1
Sreenivas Kanumuru
svk at vtiger.com
Wed Jul 30 14:06:16 GMT 2014
> *I think without 'install from file' button, vtiger CRM Open Source is
> dead project, so it was not only our voice. It was a reaction to stupid
> idea remove this button. You ever think about it what you are doing and how
> it will affect on community? *
While we removed Install from File from UI, by providing the command line
Console, developers wouldn't have a problem installing extensions from
file. We wanted to emulate the iphone like environment where apps installed
through AppStore work fine even when you upgrade the iOS. Our view is to
remove any apprehension in users mind when installing apps through
Extensions Store. With such confidence, we feel they will try more
extensions.
In any case, we took the welcome advise from you to provide the 'install
from file' option with a warning note so that users are aware of the risk.
*I suppose only 10% of vtiger CRM users can use Extensions Store because of
> implementation extension
> loader http://community.vtiger.com/help/vtigercrm/php/extension-loader.html
> <http://community.vtiger.com/help/vtigercrm/php/extension-loader.html> and
> withou Extensions Store is not possible do basic think like install new
> language file and another module manager compatible extensions.*
This remains a valid concern. We are looking at options to allow users to
install free / unencrypted extensions without the loader. Currently,
installing any extension requires the loader to be installed.
The reason we have the loader in the first place, is because we wanted to
provide developers a secure environment for distributing extensions.
*How do you plan expand your product if there is no language option etc ?*
I know your comment is not just about languages, but wanted to just state
that 12+ languages are bundled in the product. They is no need to install
them.
Regards,
Sreenivas
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 1:27 PM, IT-Solutions4You <info at its4you.sk> wrote:
> I think without 'install from file' button, vtiger CRM Open Source is dead
> project, so it was not only our voice. It was a reaction to stupid idea
> remove this button. You ever think about it what you are doing and how it
> will affect on community? I suppose only 10% of vtiger CRM users can use
> Extensions Store because of implementation extension loader
> http://community.vtiger.com/help/vtigercrm/php/extension-loader.html and
> withou Extensions Store is not possible do basic think like install new
> language file and another module manager compatible extensions. How do you
> plan expand your product if there is no language option etc ?
>
>
> Dňa 29. 7. 2014 10:48 Sreenivas Kanumuru wrote / napísal(a):
>
>>
>> Thanks for sharing these, Blazej. You have recently lent your voice for
>> adding the 'install from file' button in the Extension Store, and we did
>> it. We respect your opinion. (Infact, i emailed you a month ago to get
>> your feedback but didn't receive your reply).
>>
>> While more remains to be done, I am pleased with the progress we have
>> made since January on several aspects
>>
>> 1. Extensions Store coming soon to make it easy for publishers to
>>
>> distribute modules to more users
>> 2. Dedicated team in Vtiger, for resolving trac issues.
>> 3. Focus on improving APIs to allow developers to write powerful
>> extensions
>> 4. Focus on better Documentation - New site -
>> community.vtiger.com/help <http://community.vtiger.com/help>
>> 5. Marketplace site will soon feature developers section to allow
>>
>> developers to promote their services (not just extensions).
>>
>> I responded to your points below.
>>
>> *Why Vtiger doesn't publish some modules?*
>>
>> /Although our modules have been installed on hundreds of servers,
>>
>> the producer did not want to accept them and crated more problems.
>> This problem concerned a very simple module and we had dozens of
>> other modules for publication that were far more complicated than
>> that./
>>
>>
>>
>> We want to see more modules on the marketplace, not less. And we want to
>> make it easy for users to install those modules without putting their
>> installations at risk. Modules should be upgrade safe.
>>
>> With the new marketplace, our goal is to respond to new submissions,
>> within 2 business days. We didn't do a good job on dealing with
>> submissions last year, but that will change now.
>>
>> *Issues from Trac are not being resolved *(they are)
>>
>>
>> After six months of reporting and ignoring them by the designer, we
>> finally stopped adding them to trac.vtiger.com
>> <http://trac.vtiger.com/>.
>> /A lot of errors that we reported stayed either unresolved (although
>>
>> they were marked as solved) or was completely ignored. For us trac,
>> turned out to be impractical. /
>>
>>
>>
>> In the past 6 months, we have closed 100+ trac issues. 94 of the 170
>> issues on 6.0 are closed. More fixes are yet to be committed to SVN.
>>
>> *Developers have to pay to get extensions listed* (Wrong)
>>
>> /Partnership would probably exist if we paid the producer. However,
>> our values are somewhere else and they have never been appreciated./
>>
>>
>>
>> This is absolutely wrong. Our paid partner program only buys you a
>> listing on the partner page. It doesn't get your extension listed on the
>> marketplace, or get your code into the product. Extensions and Code
>> submissions are reviewed on their own merit, nothing else.
>>
>> *Performance *(2 seconds or less)
>> *
>>
>> *
>> Our average response time for On Demand service is 2 seconds. We measure
>> it daily because we take it seriously. Vtiger CRM open source has the
>> same code base. We are on a mission to improve the performance to get it
>> under 1 second. I know in some cases, such as Reports, Calendar,
>> response times are unacceptable when you have over very high number of
>> records. We have an On Demand customer for who reports are taking 2
>> minutes. We are working on addressing this in the product.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Sreenivas
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 1:12 PM, IT-Solutions4You
>> <info at its4you.sk
>> <mailto:info at its4you.sk>> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, We agree with all your points. We work with vtiger 8 year (from
>> vtiger 4.x version) and we have the same experiences. Absolutely not
>> boring, just truly.
>>
>>
>> Dňa 28. 7. 2014 21:43 Pabiszczak, Błażej wrote / napísal(a):
>>
>> *Introduction (boring, you can skip it ;)*
>> *
>>
>> *
>> OpenSaaS has dealt with the implementations of Vtiger software
>> for five
>> years. I, as the owner of the company, have seven years of
>> experience
>> with it. We maintain an active contact with the community in
>> Poland and
>> we are eager to help others, often behind official channels.
>>
>> Cooperation with Vtiger has always been complicated. Our first
>> obstacle
>> was the English language that is used in the software. Then, our
>> second
>> obstacle was the fact that the producer perceived us as
>> "necessary evil"
>> and/or "competitors".
>>
>> OpenSaaS has been implementing Vtiger 6 (from the first alpha
>> versions)
>> since a year, because it is a huge step in comprehending business
>> applications, even at the expense of stability that our company
>> corrected during tests at the end customer.
>>
>> We placed our hopes on the producer thinking that if something
>> that was
>> released in 6.0 version was unstable, it will be corrected in 6.1
>> version. We reported over 100 errors during six months (a lot of
>> them
>> beyond trac.vtiger.com <http://trac.vtiger.com>
>> <http://trac.vtiger.com>). Additionally, we did
>>
>> not report hundreds of other errors since they seemed so obvious
>> that it
>> would not make any sense.
>>
>> *Cooperation (also boring and you can skip it ;o)*
>> *
>>
>> *
>> It is surprising, how difficult a contact with the producer can
>> be, even
>> though the considerable majority of reported errors regarded the
>> development of their application. I will divide it into
>> subsections in
>> order to make it more transparent:
>>
>> 1. Modules
>> As one of the largest Vtiger software producers in the world, we
>> reposed
>> our trust in the producer. Unfortunately, in spite of many
>> attempts to
>> communicate we gave up, and what induced us to do so was:
>> an attempt to publish modules for 5.4 version took many months
>> (to no
>> effect, in spite of sending many emails and reminders) - our
>> concerns
>> were completely ignored by Vtiger
>> difficulties regarding the modification of system files
>> (unfortunately,
>> there was no possibility for 5.4. version to create modules
>> differently,
>> the exception were modules of "hello world" type)
>> When after two years, we managed to reach a compromise and the
>> producer
>> promised to find the time and publish modules, it turned out
>> that they
>> started to reject the colour of fonts or, in more extreme cases,
>> odd
>> visual elements. It would be acceptable, if the producer
>> themselves
>> fulfilled these assumptions at least in 10% in their modules.
>> Although our modules have been installed on hundreds of servers,
>> the
>> producer did not want to accept them and crated more problems.
>> This
>> problem concerned a very simple module and we had dozens of other
>> modules for publication that were far more complicated than that.
>>
>> That is why we gave up the publication of modules for Vtiger.
>>
>> 2. Reporting errors
>> We do not understand why the producer ignored many of errors that
>> we
>> reported. After six months of reporting and ignoring them by the
>> designer, we finally stopped adding them to trac.vtiger.com
>> <http://trac.vtiger.com>
>> <http://trac.vtiger.com>
>>
>>
>> A lot of errors that we reported stayed either unresolved
>> (although they
>> were marked as solved) or was completely ignored. For us trac,
>> turned
>> out to be impractical.
>>
>> Many times we suggested ready-made solutions for problems but
>> they were
>> always ignored. Even our numerous requests for adding one line
>> of code
>> to files of the engine were impossible to be fulfilled by the
>> producer.
>>
>> We cannot cooperate this way.
>>
>> 3. Partnership
>> Partnership would probably exist if we paid the producer.
>> However, our
>> values are somewhere else and they have never been appreciated.
>>
>> *Priorities*
>> *
>>
>> *
>> I am going to omit certain problems, such as community that does
>> not
>> exist, documentation that is missing or the fact that users of the
>> software are often ignored. Now, Vtiger is becoming more and more
>> commercialised. I could provide many examples but it is not my
>> aim.
>>
>> An end customer, who the producer wants to acquire, is the biggest
>> problem. Currently, small companies and individuals are the most
>> important customers for Vtiger. Their main objective is to
>> develop their
>> cloud that constitutes their part of profits. Obviously, the
>> producer
>> decides on its own in which direction they would like to
>> develop, but it
>> created a lot of problems:
>>
>> Quantity, not quality
>> The producer aspires to create an average product that is
>> delivered to
>> an end customer without prior testing. There have been a lot of
>> minor
>> functionalities created in order to make it possible to compare
>> the
>> product with other software, such as SugarCRM or Sales Force. In
>> fact,
>> there are created defective semi-finished products that are not
>> acceptable for the regular customer.
>>
>> What has been done with the modules:
>> Trouble Ticket
>> Calendar
>> Google Sync
>> Mail Manager
>> Reports
>> implies that the producer does not respect end users. I am not
>> going to
>> describe problems with these modules (and many others) because
>> who used
>> them knows what I am writing about.
>>
>> I regard deleting part of the functionalities from 6.0 version
>> and not
>> restoring them by eight months as an act of ignorance.
>>
>> Although we sent ready-made solutions for migration errors from
>> 5.4
>> version to 6.0 version to vtiger-list, they were not corrected for
>> months and I will leave it with no comments.
>>
>>
>> Shop
>> What the producer does with the shop is the indicative of software
>> commercialisation and the preference of own solutions over the
>> solutions
>> of partners as well as it is also the sign of ignoring the needs
>> of
>> communities.
>>
>> Performance
>> Nobody, who have not tried to do the following things, will
>> understand
>> this problem:
>> import millions of data,
>> implement the software in companies larger than 100 users.
>> It is incredible what Vtiger did in the calendar in Vtiger 6 (it
>> is only
>> one of many examples). During the past few months, we have
>> introduced
>> the software in a few very large companies, we have spent a lot
>> of time
>> on improving the logistics in generating the calendar. The basic
>> functionality of the software is useless without a few days spent
>> on
>> amendments in the code.
>>
>> Although everyone makes mistakes, that situation made us think.
>> If we
>> take existing errors in Vtiger into consideration, we will come
>> into the
>> conclusion that the producer has not introduced their product in
>> any
>> large company. Any big implementations would require cooperation
>> with
>> partners such as OpenSaaS and many days of work to optimise the
>> current
>> code and introduce patches.
>>
>> If I were wrong, that would mean that the producer does not
>> introduce
>> any patches to Vtiger community version.
>>
>> *Summary*
>> *
>>
>> *
>> We think that current direction of the development of the
>> software is
>> detrimental to the community. The further cooperation in this
>> direction
>> is not possible for us. Only radical changes can rebuild our
>> trust.
>>
>>
>> Z poważaniem / Regards
>> Błażej Pabiszczak
>> M: +48.884999123 <tel:%2B48.884999123>
>> E: b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl
>> <mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl>
>> <mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.__pl
>> <mailto:b.pabiszczak at opensaas.pl>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________
>> http://www.vtiger.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________
>>
>> http://www.vtiger.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.vtiger.com/
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.vtiger.com/
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