<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Hi!<br>
<br>
Thank you for the reply.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I will post the patches ASAP.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I did not want to go corporate subcomite
here :) I just wanted a show of hands "we are the guys that will try
to keep 4.2.x getting better". But I guess you're right. First I need
to show some action and do some patches posting.<br>
<br>
Matjaz Slak<br>
matjaz.slak@atol.si<br>
<br>
Atol d.o.o. | http://www.atol.si | tel. +386 1
510 15 30</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>"Sergio A. Kessler"
<sergiokessler@gmail.com></b> </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: vtigercrm-developers-bounces@lists.vtigercrm.com</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">16.06.2006 19:36</font>
<table border>
<tr valign=top>
<td bgcolor=white>
<div align=center><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to<br>
vtigercrm-developers@lists.vtigercrm.com</font></div></table>
<br>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">vtigercrm-developers@lists.vtigercrm.com</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] how to make
vtiger more community oriented?</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>I don't know if there is a critical mass yet to form
a sub-team of<br>
developers of 4.2.x, this branch was managed by mike fedyk but he<br>
dissapeared...<br>
<br>
so, if you have the energy, I encourage you to take an action role,<br>
you can post patches in the trac and ask for subversion commit<br>
access...<br>
<br>
once you have that, you can go ahead with commiting patches and<br>
communicating with this mailing list...<br>
and release whenever you see fit...<br>
<br>
but don't expect to form a subcommite or something like that, you will<br>
die in the intent...<br>
just go ahead...<br>
<br>
regards,<br>
/sak<br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/16/06, Matjaz.Slak@atol.si <Matjaz.Slak@atol.si> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> Hi!<br>
><br>
> First let me say I'm very happy to see this discussion starting! Cheers
to Ritchie and others!<br>
><br>
> One thing I belive that would benefit vTiger's "Community
factor" would be a regular maintenance schedule for the current production
stream - 4.2.x<br>
><br>
> I think we should form a sub-team of community developers that would
be primarily involved with this: bugfixes and usability tuning for 4.2.x
and would regularily prepere new releases of this stream.<br>
><br>
> I know a lot of people currently use 4.2.x either in their companies
or host it for others - I know we do :) And because of that we all get
regular issues reported from users - ranging from "things not working"
aka. "bugs" :) to "can you fine-tune this particular feature".<br>
><br>
> I think this feedback would be very beneficial both for the 4.2.x
stream and as a source of ideas for 5.x - IF we track them and fix them,
of course.<br>
><br>
> We've been working on fixing the 4.2.3 version and I am very happy
to see the release of 4.2.4 - I must admit I lost confidence in it ever
happening.<br>
><br>
> When I compared the issues resolved in 4.2.4 with the ones we had
to resolve ourselves I found some overlap, but found a lot of suff we fixed
that's not in 4.2.4. I would be happy to post this fixes to the TRAC so
that they can be included in 4.2.5. And I guess a lot of other people were
doing the same and therefore have their fixes which they would post IF
we provide guidance on how to do it.<br>
><br>
> If we all join forces we can make 4.2.5 a very stable version very
quickly and then start working on (maybe) tuning the features for better
end-user usability -> we've received a lot of feedback from users on
parts of vTiger that are "not user friendly".<br>
><br>
> What do you think?<br>
><br>
> Matjaz Slak<br>
> matjaz.slak@atol.si<br>
><br>
> Atol d.o.o. | http://www.atol.si<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Richie <richie@vtiger.com><br>
> Sent by: vtigercrm-developers-bounces@lists.vtigercrm.com<br>
><br>
> 14.06.2006 18:48<br>
><br>
> Please respond to<br>
> vtigercrm-developers@lists.vtigercrm.com<br>
><br>
><br>
> To vtigercrm-developers@lists.vtigercrm.com<br>
><br>
> cc vtigercrm-developers@lists.vtigercrm.com<br>
><br>
> Subject Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] how to make vtiger more
community oriented?<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I will justify the case however difficult it might be.<br>
><br>
> Yes, we did not answer the queries at certain points in time.
But at that time, the focus was on getting the job done ourselves and that
too fast and get the product out faster!There was also an impatience with
teaching the other folks about how to do it as in the same amount of time,
we would have got fixed the particular issue and lots more.<br>
><br>
> Now, we realise that the product has grown too big to be handled
by us alone and that too at the given speed that we work, it will not be
proper to take up<br>
> all the tasks ourselves. Hence the query for more community
effort.<br>
><br>
> You can state it as a phase of growth that we had to go through.<br>
> There was no intention of "not-helping-out-folks".
It was pure impatience.<br>
> I will hasten to state that "it was not arrogance".<br>
><br>
> "There should be some developer<br>
> documents, API documentation and above all good support in<br>
> Forum/Mailing List. I know that vtigerwiki has some stuff, but
it's<br>
> insufficent for a programmer. I strongly believe that making
a good<br>
> knowledge base is the key in Open Source Projects."<br>
><br>
> Manilal, we are working on that. As you are aware, we are trying
to get the code in a more simpler format (well, we are trying) and we are
trying to get the<br>
> APIs out too. If you are a bit more patient, we will have some
How Tos too out in the open. The forum has stopped being the point for
dev discussions. The mailing list is intended to be the place for dev discussions.
Hence we did not answer the questions (okay, this might be a lame excuse
but it holds at times :-) )<br>
><br>
> /sak, I know it is like looking into the funnel upside down
but that is how it is.<br>
> We do want to change but it will take some patience and should
I say guidance to do the same. Manilal, I do remember asking you to be
patient as we were working on building the basic guidelines itself.<br>
><br>
> The entire process of taking out junk code, opening up the APIs
with relatively<br>
> proper documents, the planned website and wiki changes are all
towards that<br>
> end only.<br>
><br>
> If you would have observed, I have myself admitted that I should
have been more open and should have shared the street-talk that we have
here with the community in large. Again, if you would have observed, I
have started doing the same. It is not for taking credit but just to prove
that I am trying to make things different from what they were. It will
take time.<br>
><br>
> I have in fact shared all the To-do lists of mine with you and
realise that I should have done it long ago.<br>
><br>
> Better late than never.<br>
><br>
> I take all the blame for these "issues". I assure
you we do want to be more open. Let us make a beginning. We over here,
will keep the past in perspective so that the same mistakes are not committed
again.<br>
><br>
> BTW /sak, we cannot afford to ignore you guys, however much
I hate JeffK ;-)!<br>
><br>
> Come on guys, is no one supporting me for a change ??? :-)!<br>
><br>
> Richie<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ---- Sergio A. Kessler<sergiokessler@gmail.com> wrote
----<br>
><br>
> I have to agree...<br>
><br>
> I can understand not having the time for replying to every end-user<br>
> question, in fact when I was the captain of an open source project,
I<br>
> leave the end users helping each other...<br>
><br>
> there simply no time for developers to answer every stupid question...<br>
><br>
> but if you want the *developers* community help, you cannot
afford to<br>
> ignore them, and then ask the same people to help...<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 6/14/06, Manilal K M <libregeek@gmail.com> wrote:<br>
> > On 14/06/06, Richie <richie@vtiger.com> wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > I would like to get your views on making vtiger more<br>
> > > community oriented. The reason for this is<br>
> > > as follows :-<br>
> > ><br>
> > > a) It will free the core team for other tasks. Right<br>
> > > now, we are facing a shortage of hands in<br>
> > > fixing the issues,<br>
> > > testing the product, documentation, etc.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > We would like these to be off-loaded to an extent
so<br>
> > > that we can continue further development.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Things are working no doubt but in patches.<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > I would like to bring in more accountability,<br>
> > > automation and transparency into the<br>
> > > system.<br>
> > > Again, these will not be at the cost of flexibility<br>
> > > and speed.<br>
> > > The core team when left to itself can move very fast<br>
> > > but we need to move together. I am sure<br>
> > > we have people who have skills<br>
> > > supplementary/complementary to those of the core team.<br>
> > > The need is to make these work together thereby leading
to<br>
> > > a fast,nimble and efficient community<br>
> > > thereby leading to a much better product.<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > I am sure we have gurus on board who have 'been<br>
> > > there, done that'. I welcome them to put<br>
> > > forth<br>
> > > their ideas on handling this issue.<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > Richie<br>
> > > _______________________________________________<br>
> ><br>
> > Hi Richie:<br>
> > I have only very limited experience(less than 6 months)
in vtiger.<br>
> > Within this period I never felt that vtiger is a Open Source
Project<br>
> > neither a Community project. The developers never mind
to respond to<br>
> > development related questions. They may respond to some
user related<br>
> > questions, but rejected developer questions. This is not
good for a<br>
> > Community project. Of course it's the highlight of Proprietory<br>
> > projects, where the end user/developer has little control.<br>
> ><br>
> > I admit the fact that the developers are busy, but the
fact<br>
> > remains that if a community project wants to succeed, then
there<br>
> > should be somebody to make the guidelines for development
and project<br>
> > management. I have posted a number of queries regarding
developing new<br>
> > modules and module management in vtiger5. But none of them
got a<br>
> > satisfactory reply. They are simply ignored by the developers.
I know<br>
> > that vtiger5 is under development. But there are no changelog
or<br>
> > changes which a programmer can refer with the released
code. I am a<br>
> > member of other community projects like Horde and I was
suprised with<br>
> > the support. Initially I got immense support from the horde
developers<br>
> > so that I was able to learn the stuff in quick time and
was able to<br>
> > contribute some good patches.<br>
> ><br>
> > Inorder to make vtiger community oriented, the first step
should be<br>
> > taken from the developers itself. There should be some
developer<br>
> > documents, API documentation and above all good support
in<br>
> > Forum/Mailing List. I know that vtigerwiki has some stuff,
but it's<br>
> > insufficent for a programmer. I strongly believe that making
a good<br>
> > knowledge base is the key in Open Source Projects.<br>
> ><br>
> > See the result of my postings in mailing list and forums:<br>
> > http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-March/000612.html<br>
> > http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=6631<br>
> > http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=4664<br>
> > http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-April/000804.html<br>
> > http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-May/000918.html<br>
> ><br>
> > See the Unanswered Postings in Forums:<br>
> > http://forums.vtiger.com/search.php?search_id=unanswered<br>
> ><br>
> > There are more than 2000 Postings which are unanswered
!!!<br>
> ><br>
> > regards<br>
> > Manilal<br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
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</tt></font>
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