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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Matjaz,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Welcome to the 4.2.x team. Its
loosely formed and varying levels of contribution, but your efforts will be much
appreciated. Allan has done a great job working with the source and
abstracting it to be non-db dependent amongst many other things. Jeff K
contributes quite a bit as well. I'm in it as my user-base isn't jumping
up & down about going to 5.0 right now. I'm sure there are others out
there who I haven't named.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>- Joel</FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B>
vtigercrm-developers-bounces@lists.vtigercrm.com on behalf of
Matjaz.Slak@atol.si<BR><B>Sent:</B> Mon 6/19/2006 4:15 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
vtigercrm-developers@lists.vtigercrm.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[Vtigercrm-developers] how to make vtiger morecommunity
oriented?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Hi!<BR><BR>Thank you for the reply.</FONT>
<BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I will post the patches ASAP.</FONT>
<BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I did not want to go corporate subcomite
here :) I just wanted a show of hands "we are the guys that will try to keep
4.2.x getting better". But I guess you're right. First I need to show some
action and do some patches posting.<BR><BR>Matjaz
Slak<BR>matjaz.slak@atol.si<BR><BR>Atol d.o.o. | http://www.atol.si
| tel. +386 1 510 15 30</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
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<TD width="40%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>"Sergio A. Kessler"
<sergiokessler@gmail.com></B> </FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif
size=1>Sent by: vtigercrm-developers-bounces@lists.vtigercrm.com</FONT>
<P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>16.06.2006 19:36</FONT>
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<DIV align=center><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Please respond
to<BR>vtigercrm-developers@lists.vtigercrm.com</FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE><BR></P>
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<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>To</FONT></DIV>
<TD><FONT face=sans-serif
size=1>vtigercrm-developers@lists.vtigercrm.com</FONT>
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<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>cc</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Subject</FONT></DIV>
<TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] how to
make vtiger more community
oriented?</FONT></TD></TR></TABLE><BR>
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<TD></TD></TR></TABLE><BR></TD></TR></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FONT
size=2><TT>I don't know if there is a critical mass yet to form a sub-team
of<BR>developers of 4.2.x, this branch was managed by mike fedyk but
he<BR>dissapeared...<BR><BR>so, if you have the energy, I encourage you to take
an action role,<BR>you can post patches in the trac and ask for subversion
commit<BR>access...<BR><BR>once you have that, you can go ahead with commiting
patches and<BR>communicating with this mailing list...<BR>and release whenever
you see fit...<BR><BR>but don't expect to form a subcommite or something like
that, you will<BR>die in the intent...<BR>just go
ahead...<BR><BR>regards,<BR>/sak<BR><BR><BR>On 6/16/06, Matjaz.Slak@atol.si
<Matjaz.Slak@atol.si> wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>> Hi!<BR>><BR>>
First let me say I'm very happy to see this discussion starting! Cheers to
Ritchie and others!<BR>><BR>> One thing I belive that would benefit
vTiger's "Community factor" would be a regular maintenance schedule for the
current production stream - 4.2.x<BR>><BR>> I think we should form a
sub-team of community developers that would be primarily involved with this:
bugfixes and usability tuning for 4.2.x and would regularily prepere new
releases of this stream.<BR>><BR>> I know a lot of people currently use
4.2.x either in their companies or host it for others - I know we do :) And
because of that we all get regular issues reported from users - ranging from
"things not working" aka. "bugs" :) to "can you fine-tune this particular
feature".<BR>><BR>> I think this feedback would be very beneficial both
for the 4.2.x stream and as a source of ideas for 5.x - IF we track them and fix
them, of course.<BR>><BR>> We've been working on fixing the 4.2.3 version
and I am very happy to see the release of 4.2.4 - I must admit I lost confidence
in it ever happening.<BR>><BR>> When I compared the issues resolved in
4.2.4 with the ones we had to resolve ourselves I found some overlap, but found
a lot of suff we fixed that's not in 4.2.4. I would be happy to post this fixes
to the TRAC so that they can be included in 4.2.5. And I guess a lot of other
people were doing the same and therefore have their fixes which they would post
IF we provide guidance on how to do it.<BR>><BR>> If we all join forces we
can make 4.2.5 a very stable version very quickly and then start working on
(maybe) tuning the features for better end-user usability -> we've received a
lot of feedback from users on parts of vTiger that are "not user
friendly".<BR>><BR>> What do you think?<BR>><BR>> Matjaz
Slak<BR>> matjaz.slak@atol.si<BR>><BR>> Atol d.o.o. |
http://www.atol.si<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Richie
<richie@vtiger.com><BR>> Sent by:
vtigercrm-developers-bounces@lists.vtigercrm.com<BR>><BR>> 14.06.2006
18:48<BR>><BR>> Please respond to<BR>>
vtigercrm-developers@lists.vtigercrm.com<BR>><BR>><BR>> To
vtigercrm-developers@lists.vtigercrm.com<BR>><BR>> cc
vtigercrm-developers@lists.vtigercrm.com<BR>><BR>> Subject Re:
[Vtigercrm-developers] how to make vtiger more
community
oriented?<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
I will justify the case however difficult it might be.<BR>><BR>>
Yes, we did not answer the queries at certain points in time. But at that
time, the focus was on getting the job done ourselves and that too fast and get
the product out faster!There was also an impatience with teaching the other
folks about how to do it as in the same amount of time, we would have got fixed
the particular issue and lots more.<BR>><BR>> Now, we realise that
the product has grown too big to be handled by us alone and that too at the
given speed that we work, it will not be proper to take up<BR>> all the
tasks ourselves. Hence the query for more community effort.<BR>><BR>>
You can state it as a phase of growth that we had to go through.<BR>>
There was no intention of "not-helping-out-folks". It was pure
impatience.<BR>> I will hasten to state that "it was not
arrogance".<BR>><BR>> "There should be some developer<BR>>
documents, API documentation and above all good support in<BR>>
Forum/Mailing List. I know that vtigerwiki has some stuff, but
it's<BR>> insufficent for a programmer. I strongly believe that making
a good<BR>> knowledge base is the key in Open Source
Projects."<BR>><BR>> Manilal, we are working on that. As you are
aware, we are trying to get the code in a more simpler format (well, we are
trying) and we are trying to get the<BR>> APIs out too. If you are a
bit more patient, we will have some How Tos too out in the open. The forum has
stopped being the point for dev discussions. The mailing list is intended to be
the place for dev discussions. Hence we did not answer the questions (okay, this
might be a lame excuse but it holds at times :-) )<BR>><BR>> /sak, I
know it is like looking into the funnel upside down but that is how it
is.<BR>> We do want to change but it will take some patience and should
I say guidance to do the same. Manilal, I do remember asking you to be patient
as we were working on building the basic guidelines itself.<BR>><BR>>
The entire process of taking out junk code, opening up the APIs with
relatively<BR>> proper documents, the planned website and wiki changes
are all towards that<BR>> end only.<BR>><BR>> If you would
have observed, I have myself admitted that I should have been more open and
should have shared the street-talk that we have here with the community in
large. Again, if you would have observed, I have started doing the same. It is
not for taking credit but just to prove that I am trying to make things
different from what they were. It will take time.<BR>><BR>> I have
in fact shared all the To-do lists of mine with you and realise that I should
have done it long ago.<BR>><BR>> Better late than
never.<BR>><BR>> I take all the blame for these "issues". I assure
you we do want to be more open. Let us make a beginning. We over here, will keep
the past in perspective so that the same mistakes are not committed
again.<BR>><BR>> BTW /sak, we cannot afford to ignore you guys,
however much I hate JeffK ;-)!<BR>><BR>> Come on guys, is no one
supporting me for a change ??? :-)!<BR>><BR>>
Richie<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> ---- Sergio
A. Kessler<sergiokessler@gmail.com> wrote ----<BR>><BR>> I have to
agree...<BR>><BR>> I can understand not having the time for replying
to every end-user<BR>> question, in fact when I was the captain of an
open source project, I<BR>> leave the end users helping each
other...<BR>><BR>> there simply no time for developers to answer
every stupid question...<BR>><BR>> but if you want the *developers*
community help, you cannot afford to<BR>> ignore them, and then ask the
same people to help...<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> On 6/14/06, Manilal
K M <libregeek@gmail.com> wrote:<BR>> > On 14/06/06, Richie
<richie@vtiger.com> wrote:<BR>> > ><BR>> > >
I would like to get your views on making vtiger more<BR>> > >
community oriented. The reason for this is<BR>> > > as follows
:-<BR>> > ><BR>> > > a) It will free the core team
for other tasks. Right<BR>> > > now, we are facing a shortage of
hands in<BR>> > > fixing the issues,<BR>> > >
testing the product, documentation, etc.<BR>> > ><BR>>
> > We would like these to be off-loaded to an extent so<BR>>
> > that we can continue further development.<BR>> >
><BR>> > > Things are working no doubt but in patches.<BR>>
> ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > I would like to
bring in more accountability,<BR>> > > automation and
transparency into the<BR>> > > system.<BR>> > >
Again, these will not be at the cost of flexibility<BR>> > > and
speed.<BR>> > > The core team when left to itself can move very
fast<BR>> > > but we need to move together. I am sure<BR>>
> > we have people who have skills<BR>> > >
supplementary/complementary to those of the core team.<BR>> > >
The need is to make these work together thereby leading to<BR>> >
> a fast,nimble and efficient community<BR>> > > thereby
leading to a much better product.<BR>> > ><BR>> >
><BR>> > > I am sure we have gurus on board who have
'been<BR>> > > there, done that'. I welcome them to put<BR>>
> > forth<BR>> > > their ideas on handling this
issue.<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >
Richie<BR>> > >
_______________________________________________<BR>> ><BR>>
> Hi Richie:<BR>> > I have only very limited
experience(less than 6 months) in vtiger.<BR>> > Within this period
I never felt that vtiger is a Open Source Project<BR>> > neither a
Community project. The developers never mind to respond to<BR>> >
development related questions. They may respond to some user related<BR>>
> questions, but rejected developer questions. This is not good for
a<BR>> > Community project. Of course it's the highlight of
Proprietory<BR>> > projects, where the end user/developer has little
control.<BR>> ><BR>> > I admit the fact that the
developers are busy, but the fact<BR>> > remains that if a community
project wants to succeed, then there<BR>> > should be somebody to
make the guidelines for development and project<BR>> > management. I
have posted a number of queries regarding developing new<BR>> >
modules and module management in vtiger5. But none of them got a<BR>>
> satisfactory reply. They are simply ignored by the developers. I
know<BR>> > that vtiger5 is under development. But there are no
changelog or<BR>> > changes which a programmer can refer with the
released code. I am a<BR>> > member of other community projects like
Horde and I was suprised with<BR>> > the support. Initially I got
immense support from the horde developers<BR>> > so that I was able
to learn the stuff in quick time and was able to<BR>> > contribute
some good patches.<BR>> ><BR>> > Inorder to make vtiger
community oriented, the first step should be<BR>> > taken from the
developers itself. There should be some developer<BR>> > documents,
API documentation and above all good support in<BR>> > Forum/Mailing
List. I know that vtigerwiki has some stuff, but it's<BR>> >
insufficent for a programmer. I strongly believe that making a good<BR>>
> knowledge base is the key in Open Source Projects.<BR>>
><BR>> > See the result of my postings in mailing list and
forums:<BR>> >
http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-March/000612.html<BR>>
> http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=6631<BR>> >
http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=4664<BR>> >
http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-April/000804.html<BR>>
>
http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-May/000918.html<BR>>
><BR>> > See the Unanswered Postings in Forums:<BR>>
> http://forums.vtiger.com/search.php?search_id=unanswered<BR>>
><BR>> > There are more than 2000 Postings which are
unanswered !!!<BR>> ><BR>> > regards<BR>> >
Manilal<BR>> >
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