<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Hi!<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">First let me say I'm very happy to see
this discussion starting! Cheers to Ritchie and others!</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
One thing I belive that would benefit vTiger's "Community factor"
would be a regular maintenance schedule for the current production stream
- 4.2.x</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I think we should form a sub-team of
community developers that would be primarily involved with this: bugfixes
and usability tuning for 4.2.x and would regularily prepere new releases
of this stream.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I know a lot of people currently use
4.2.x either in their companies or host it for others - I know we do :)
And because of that we all get regular issues reported from users - ranging
from "things not working" aka. "bugs" :) to "can
you fine-tune this particular feature".</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I think this feedback would be very
beneficial both for the 4.2.x stream and as a source of ideas for 5.x -
IF we track them and fix them, of course.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We've been working on fixing the 4.2.3
version and I am very happy to see the release of 4.2.4 - I must admit
I lost confidence in it ever happening. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">When I compared the issues resolved
in 4.2.4 with the ones we had to resolve ourselves I found some overlap,
but found a lot of suff we fixed that's not in 4.2.4. I would be happy
to post this fixes to the TRAC so that they can be included in 4.2.5. And
I guess a lot of other people were doing the same and therefore have their
fixes which they would post IF we provide guidance on how to do it.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">If we all join forces we can make 4.2.5
a very stable version very quickly and then start working on (maybe) tuning
the features for better end-user usability -> we've received a lot of
feedback from users on parts of vTiger that are "not user friendly".</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">What do you think?<br>
<br>
Matjaz Slak<br>
matjaz.slak@atol.si<br>
<br>
Atol d.o.o. | http://www.atol.si</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Richie <richie@vtiger.com></b>
</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: vtigercrm-developers-bounces@lists.vtigercrm.com</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">14.06.2006 18:48</font>
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<div align=center><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to<br>
vtigercrm-developers@lists.vtigercrm.com</font></div></table>
<br>
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<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">vtigercrm-developers@lists.vtigercrm.com</font>
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<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">vtigercrm-developers@lists.vtigercrm.com</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] how to make
vtiger more community
oriented?</font></table>
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<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3>I will justify the case however difficult it might be.
<br>
<br>
Yes, we did not answer the queries at certain points in time. But at that
time, the focus was on getting the job done ourselves and that too fast
and get the product out faster!There was also an impatience with teaching
the other folks about how to do it as in the same amount of time, we would
have got fixed the particular issue and lots more. <br>
<br>
Now, we realise that the product has grown too big to be handled by us
alone and that too at the given speed that we work, it will not be proper
to take up <br>
all the tasks ourselves. Hence the query for more community effort. <br>
<br>
You can state it as a phase of growth that we had to go through. <br>
There was no intention of "not-helping-out-folks". It was pure
impatience. <br>
I will hasten to state that "it was not arrogance". <br>
<br>
"There should be some developer <br>
documents, API documentation and above all good support in <br>
Forum/Mailing List. I know that vtigerwiki has some stuff, but it's <br>
insufficent for a programmer. I strongly believe that making a good <br>
knowledge base is the key in Open Source Projects." <br>
<br>
Manilal, we are working on that. As you are aware, we are trying to get
the code in a more simpler format (well, we are trying) and we are trying
to get the <br>
APIs out too. If you are a bit more patient, we will have some How Tos
too out in the open. The forum has stopped being the point for dev discussions.
The mailing list is intended to be the place for dev discussions. Hence
we did not answer the questions (okay, this might be a lame excuse but
it holds at times :-) ) <br>
<br>
/sak, I know it is like looking into the funnel upside down but that is
how it is. <br>
We do want to change but it will take some patience and should I say guidance
to do the same. Manilal, I do remember asking you to be patient as we were
working on building the basic guidelines itself. <br>
<br>
The entire process of taking out junk code, opening up the APIs with relatively
<br>
proper documents, the planned website and wiki changes are all towards
that <br>
end only. <br>
<br>
If you would have observed, I have myself admitted that I should have been
more open and should have shared the street-talk that we have here with
the community in large. Again, if you would have observed, I have started
doing the same. It is not for taking credit but just to prove that I am
trying to make things different from what they were. It will take time.
<br>
<br>
I have in fact shared all the To-do lists of mine with you and realise
that I should have done it long ago. <br>
<br>
Better late than never. <br>
<br>
I take all the blame for these "issues". I assure you we do want
to be more open. Let us make a beginning. We over here, will keep the past
in perspective so that the same mistakes are not committed again. <br>
<br>
BTW /sak, we cannot afford to ignore you guys, however much I hate JeffK
;-)! <br>
<br>
Come on guys, is no one supporting me for a change ??? :-)! <br>
<br>
Richie <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
---- Sergio A. Kessler<sergiokessler@gmail.com> wrote ---- <br>
</font>
<br><font size=3>I have to agree...<br>
<br>
I can understand not having the time for replying to every end-user<br>
question, in fact when I was the captain of an open source project, I<br>
leave the end users helping each other...<br>
<br>
there simply no time for developers to answer every stupid question...<br>
<br>
but if you want the *developers* community help, you cannot afford to<br>
ignore them, and then ask the same people to help...<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/14/06, Manilal K M <libregeek@gmail.com> wrote:<br>
> On 14/06/06, Richie <richie@vtiger.com> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > I would like to get your views on making vtiger more<br>
> > community oriented. The reason for this is<br>
> > as follows :-<br>
> ><br>
> > a) It will free the core team for other tasks. Right<br>
> > now, we are facing a shortage of hands in<br>
> > fixing the issues,<br>
> > testing the product, documentation, etc.<br>
> ><br>
> > We would like these to be off-loaded to an extent so<br>
> > that we can continue further development.<br>
> ><br>
> > Things are working no doubt but in patches.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > I would like to bring in more accountability,<br>
> > automation and transparency into the<br>
> > system.<br>
> > Again, these will not be at the cost of flexibility<br>
> > and speed.<br>
> > The core team when left to itself can move very fast<br>
> > but we need to move together. I am sure<br>
> > we have people who have skills<br>
> > supplementary/complementary to those of the core team.<br>
> > The need is to make these work together thereby leading to<br>
> > a fast,nimble and efficient community<br>
> > thereby leading to a much better product.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > I am sure we have gurus on board who have 'been<br>
> > there, done that'. I welcome them to put<br>
> > forth<br>
> > their ideas on handling this issue.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Richie<br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
><br>
> Hi Richie:<br>
> I have only very limited experience(less than 6 months) in vtiger.<br>
> Within this period I never felt that vtiger is a Open Source Project<br>
> neither a Community project. The developers never mind to respond
to<br>
> development related questions. They may respond to some user related<br>
> questions, but rejected developer questions. This is not good for
a<br>
> Community project. Of course it's the highlight of Proprietory<br>
> projects, where the end user/developer has little control.<br>
><br>
> I admit the fact that the developers are busy, but the fact<br>
> remains that if a community project wants to succeed, then there<br>
> should be somebody to make the guidelines for development and project<br>
> management. I have posted a number of queries regarding developing
new<br>
> modules and module management in vtiger5. But none of them got a<br>
> satisfactory reply. They are simply ignored by the developers. I know<br>
> that vtiger5 is under development. But there are no changelog or<br>
> changes which a programmer can refer with the released code. I am
a<br>
> member of other community projects like Horde and I was suprised with<br>
> the support. Initially I got immense support from the horde developers<br>
> so that I was able to learn the stuff in quick time and was able to<br>
> contribute some good patches.<br>
><br>
> Inorder to make vtiger community oriented, the first step should be<br>
> taken from the developers itself. There should be some developer<br>
> documents, API documentation and above all good support in<br>
> Forum/Mailing List. I know that vtigerwiki has some stuff, but it's<br>
> insufficent for a programmer. I strongly believe that making a good<br>
> knowledge base is the key in Open Source Projects.<br>
><br>
> See the result of my postings in mailing list and forums:<br>
> </font><a href="http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-March/000612.html"><font size=3 color=blue><u>http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-March/000612.html</u></font></a><font size=3><br>
> </font><a href="http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=6631"><font size=3 color=blue><u>http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=6631</u></font></a><font size=3><br>
> </font><a href="http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=4664"><font size=3 color=blue><u>http://forums.vtiger.com/viewtopic.php?t=4664</u></font></a><font size=3><br>
> </font><a href="http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-April/000804.html"><font size=3 color=blue><u>http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-April/000804.html</u></font></a><font size=3><br>
> </font><a href="http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-May/000918.html"><font size=3 color=blue><u>http://lists.vtigercrm.com/pipermail/vtigercrm-developers/2006-May/000918.html</u></font></a><font size=3><br>
><br>
> See the Unanswered Postings in Forums:<br>
> </font><a href="http://forums.vtiger.com/search.php?search_id=unanswered"><font size=3 color=blue><u>http://forums.vtiger.com/search.php?search_id=unanswered</u></font></a><font size=3><br>
><br>
> There are more than 2000 Postings which are unanswered !!!<br>
><br>
> regards<br>
> Manilal<br>
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